1John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
An idol is anything that usurps the place of the Lord Jesus in our hearts, and it can be anything of this world. The hidden idols are the ‘spiritual’ ones, and at their outset we didn’t perceive them to be idols, but as Jesus’ Light increased in us, and as we grew in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, we realized that they were idols.
Invariably it is having men, spiritual leaders, in the place of the Lord Jesus, that is, having more confidence in men than in the Man, Christ Jesus. In this sense, a “spiritual” idol is another mediator, other than the only Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.
There’s a whole world full of idols out there, promising much, promising the world, but empty and vain.
Col 2:20 If you are dead with Christ from the basic principles of the world……….
Whatever our Lord Jesus is currently “dead to”, we should also be “dead to”. eh. And what He is alive to, we should also be alive to, for we are partakers of His Life, of Him, members of Christ.
His Life is “life from the dead”, not a rejuvenated and reformed old life.
Any reprobate can reform themselves if they are convinced of the personal benefits of doing so. Without Christ they are still dead, and eternally lost to God.
We preach Christ, and Him alone.
Ian.
Ian Vincent 
October 23, 2007 at 12:56 am
Ian said, “There’s a whole world full of idols out there, promising much, promising the world, but empty and vain.”
Not only promising the world but promising the “spiritual” world.
When I first became a Christian it was tough transitioning from someone else’s walk with God to having MY walk with God.
To put it in Star Trek parlance, getting out of the tractor beam.
Many of the believers I have met over time don’t grow as Paul says, “in the knowledge” of the Lord Jesus because they are trying to have somebody else’s walk with God.
God is faithful and will wean us off the idols of denominations, extra biblical teachings and even being out of church groupies.
ONLY when we have been weaned from these things and I’m sure others, will we be fit to meet each other on even ground.
Even ground, without ever having to mention it again, means that the things that separate us dissolve and we become the steel sharpening steel.
Yes, We preach Christ, and Him alone.
October 23, 2007 at 12:12 pm
An idol is anything we are afraid to lose, if God so commands, i.e. anything we love more than God.
P.S. Got something that God is showing me that I believe you guys will be interested in …
October 23, 2007 at 12:13 pm
I’m doing this from work. Hopefully, my internet will be back on when I get home tonight.
Peace!
October 23, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Looking fw. to it, we also have had internet probs. bro.
Re: “An idol is anything we are afraid to lose, if God so commands, i.e. anything we love more than God.”
Yep.
ian.
October 23, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Bob, enjoyed your post.
Re: “To put it in Star Trek parlance, getting out of the tractor beam.
Many of the believers I have met over time don’t grow as Paul says, “in the knowledge” of the Lord Jesus because they are trying to have somebody else’s walk with God.”
Been there, done that, but didn’t get the T-shirt.
Re: “God is faithful and will wean us off the idols of denominations, extra biblical teachings and even being out of church groupies.
ONLY when we have been weaned from these things and I’m sure others, will we be fit to meet each other on even ground.”
Yes, when we’ve been weaned off our idols then what’s left is Jesus.
ian.
October 26, 2007 at 9:37 am
g’day Ian, Mark, Bob…
jut thought to pass some observations along from my mate Roy Waldrom’s site [www.forgiveit.com] on this topic.
Idolotry
By Roy Waldrom
I have been reading through the account of the Kings and especially Hezekiah,
Manasseh and Josiah. 1 Kings 20-25.
Hezekiah sought to follow the Lord, his son turned the people straight back
into idolatry, then came Josiah who destroyed all the idols and commanded the people to celebrate the largest gathering of the Passover since the days of the judges and when Josiah died they went straight back to idolatry.
The heart of the people was not changed because of where the leader was at.
Also by the time Josiah came on the scene, the fate of the nation was fixed
because of all that had taken place.
Israel was one nation under God, there is no such nation in the church age,
but there is the church. The idol of the church is church and people love it that way. Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
In the New Testament the idols are in the heart. The kingdom is within you.
The Kingdom is Righteousness, Joy and Peace in the Holy Ghost.
An idol is any thing in the heart that takes the place of the Holy Spirit’s
control. For most, their idol is fear resulting in torment. The idol gets there by what people judge as Good or Evil, either way, they are caught either doing it, or fighting it.
TV, Radio, Films, Computers, Newspapers, (The list goes on) all information
that only feeds the idol in the heart.
Another idol is self, wanting others to take responsibility for them so the
selfishness and independence can reign.
Top down control is there, because in peoples hearts they know they are created and must be lead and do not want that control to be Father God by the Holy Spirit. Hence the idol in the heart controls them and is fed by outside influences.
Those free of idols in the heart, are not influenced by any thing other than the Lordship of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Those lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
Sad to say that number in the west is few.
An outpouring of the Holy Spirit will only give an opportunity for people to hear the truth, so that they can choose, soon after the end will come because if it does not Satan will seduce most back into idolatry, and the end will be worse. The house clean and empty is a place for 7 worse to occupy.
How are we to pray?
Lu 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Contact Roy Waldrom
May, 2007
October 26, 2007 at 9:42 am
some further information from http://www.forgiveit.com.. this is a bit long, so apologies in advance, but is excellent food for thought.
bless ya
martin
Seeking to Clarify Judgment Message
By Roy Waldrom
This question was put to me:
“Having read a good deal of your stuff about forgiveness and refusal to judge, I seem to have uncovered, as if it were, a snag.
When we speak of refusing to judge, don’t we run headlong into the
government systems we live under? Don’t our governments exist exactly for the purpose of passing judgment. Isn’t this necessary to protect the citizens.” END.
Answer.
Governments do their own thing; it is called secular humanism.
Those who choose to walk in the path of relationship with their creator will run headlong into a wall that will destroy them if they have any judgment or unforgiveness in their heart towards governments that are doing their own thing.
In the beginning there was to be no set of rules. All of creation was meant to be living in happy relationship with the One who created them, Father God, and each other.
People face many choices, but what God says is the only true option. To know His choice means to hear His voice, and that takes learning. (John 10:27)
27 “The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.” [Amplified Bible]
True discipling, is to teach people how to hear God and obey what they hear.
How should people live in a world that is run by judging?
It all comes down to where the information comes from to make a judgment.
There are only 2 sources for all judgment.
1)That which is the Creator’s assessment, what He tells people to pass on which comes from the Tree of Life, who is Jesus.
2) That which we arrive at by the 5 senses, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Satan. Why Satan? Whenever a person eats from that tree they eat death to relationships, the letter of the law kills, 2 Corinthians 3:6
Man’s judgment is always on what a person does, God looks on the heart that tells him why.
1 Sam 16:7 “But the Lord said to Samuel, Look not on his appearance or at the height of his stature, for I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” AMP
One assessment is out of relationship with the one who knows the heart.
The other out of self according to what the person believes is right and wrong.
The choice is either Relationship or Law.
One has love and grace, the other death.
All the wisdom, knowledge and understanding man was ever needed to have, was to be found in the Tree of Life.
On the part of man, this requires Death to Independence.
The other tree (of Knowledge of Good and Evil) gives knowledge to man according to laws, as he perceives right and wrong. There is no relationship, no understanding or wisdom as to how to mend or build relationships.
Law was created for the lawless so that they would not kill each other, plus law is a School Master to bring man to Christ.
Galatians Gal 3:24 “So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, (School Master) our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.”
AMP
Romans 10:4 For “Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believes.”
All through the Old Testament the prophets only said and did what they were told. They served as a pipe that Father’s message flowed through to the people.
In the New Testament we read that Jesus only said and did what His Father told him. John 5:19 and 6:38.
John 5:19 “So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn]”
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will and purpose but to do the will and purpose of Him Who sent Me.” AMP
We do not hear in every situation, the conversation that went on between Jesus and His Father, but I believe there was one because He said so.
In each and every situation man is not required to have it all worked out.
Matthew 10:19. “But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speaks, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.” (Or through you)
This statement is repeated several times, (example) Luke 12:11, Luke 21:14.
Satan, has man learning all he can, so he will be full of knowledge and live independently.
Jesus said in John 16:13-15, that He would send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would guide us.
John 16:13-15 “But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come” [things that will happen in the future].
14 He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.”
15 “Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.”
All man was meant to do was go for a ride under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Judgment is all about Satan’s kingdom.
There is only one true judge, the wise will leave judging to him. Genesis 18:25. “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Take the example of the lady who pulled out of a side street and cut a person off who was riding down the street on his bike. She broke the law that says give way when turning to all traffic going straight through. The law says she broke the law and thus was guilty and should be punished. There was No way out.
This lady did not set out from home having her mind made up to run into a person on a bike.
She never saw him was her confession, and she ended up in shock, totally traumatized.
It is the same as the woman who was brought to Jesus said caught committing adultery. According to the law, she was guilty, with no way out. John chapter 8.
We are born sinners because of the sin of Adam recorded in Genesis 3.
We need to get re-connected to the Tree of Life, which Jesus opened the way for, by dying on the Cross. Father God punished his son for the sin of the world, removing all the laws against man setting man free to be re-connected to LIFE.
2 Corinthians 5:15 “And that he (Jesus) died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”
People get connected to the Tree of Life, but, sad to say, return to LAW. That is what the book of Galatians is all about. They turned from Grace (Freedom) back to following law.
A wife told a couple in Australia one morning that if her husband had another brain it would be lonely. The husband thought it was funny, they took it as judgment. The husband and wife spent 3 hours trying to explain to them the difference and they could not get it.
One must not say they were thick, But it is easy to see they were living by law.
I believe from Father God’s stand point, He loves sending all sorts of situations to test mankind, to see which nature man will respond from.
He is in the business of character building, hence at times his choice is far from ours and it is designed to see how we will respond or react.
There is a very interesting verse found in Job 38:2. “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?”
All day long we are required to make choices, but where do we get the knowledge from to make that choice?
The Word says, Judge not, Matthew 7:1-2 and Luke 6:37
It also says. Put away all anger, wrath, and malice. Ephesians 4:31-32
Both of these are a choice.
All day long we get the chance to judge, get angry, plus another zillion things.
Or we can choose not to judge and forgive. If we are wise, simply let the judge of all the earth reign in our life, and tell us His choice and we do it. Simply hear and obey.
To share with some people about forgiveness will bring them into judgment. Why?
Because it will force them to expose the truth of their hearts, which Father may desire to do and He uses us to share a concept that will cause it to happen.
Over and over again the Bible says that God hardened Pharaohs heart.
Not really.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
It goes back to the one who started it.
God sent the plagues and it forced Pharaoh to have to choose.
If there was no challenge, by giving a choice Pharaoh would not have made a choice.
Some people have said in the past I should not talk about speaking in tongues because it can cause a reaction.
I prayed about this and the following came to me.
There will only be a reaction where a mind controlling demon is in control. This is a spirit that makes the mind believe it is in control and only what the mind accepts will it respond to.
When a person speaks in tongues, the mind is not in control and the mind will do all it can to disqualify the gift. 1Corinthians 14:14 “For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.”
No, I do not put anyone anywhere. They put themselves there, by their choice. (Their response)
Surely one needs to make sure it is what Father wants to bring them at that moment. There is a timing in God. Ecclesiastes 3.
A real life parable.
Satan arrives in the throne room of heaven and Father God says to Satan, have you considered my servant Roy?
Satan replies yes, but you have a hedge around him and he is only rejoicing because every thing is going fine.
Father tells Satan that he has a right to have a go, but you cannot break his bones or kill him.
Satan sees Roy biking down a road and thinks,” Here is my opportunity “ and has a car pull out in front of him, leaving him no space and bang – man hits car and ends up in the middle of the road.
Then Satan waits to see which Tree Roy responds from.
After a few hours and the shock has worn off, Roy heads to the Tree of Life to deal with it all.
He repents of any mistake on his part, takes the forgiveness that is available for all who repent and he forgives, making sure there is no judgment out of self.
He prays blessing down upon the driver of the car and that she will not suffer trauma. Plus Roy does not hold her responsible for any damage.
The outcome is that Roy suffered no trauma, or loss of finance. as insurance fixed the bike and nature repaired his body . While sitting around waiting for nature to repair his body he was full of love, joy and peace.
The world is a mess., WHY? Muslim vs. Christian, Black vs. White, Republican vs. Democrat. On and on it goes all because of an unforgiveness/judgment.
How many millions of men and women killed over the centuries because of unforgiveness.
Race relations are forever a problem when we refuse to get to the real reason behind them. Unforgiveness.
Every day we are asked by some one to join their boycotts, send emails and write to the government agencies about some issue.
All control brought about from judging and unforgiveness.
We need to be careful before we even send a reply, looking in our heart we may well find rising judgment of their judgment.
All in all it is very clear to those who come to a place where they see the control judging brings upon them first. Luke 6:38 “Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:2 “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Every judgment man makes becomes a law to the one who made it, that why it says in Romans 2 that you who judge practice the same things.
Only by walking moment by moment in tune with Father God by the power of the Holy Spirit can no judging be achieved and the right response take place in all relationships.
Much vigilance is required to stay “FREE”.
One is free when reigning in them is love joy and peace.
Contact Roy Waldrom
May 2007
October 26, 2007 at 2:38 pm
When someone sins against us, bcos we are moral beings, we first judge that we have been wronged, and then, as sons of God we forgive. Without the moral judgment there would be nothing to forgive, and no walk of forgiveness.
ian.
October 26, 2007 at 11:58 pm
when something happens to us in word or deed, the issue becomes how we deal with the event. if we take “”offense”” then we have judged the event and the people involved and are thereby bound to it.
on the other hand if we elect , choose, to not judge the event or the people and forgive, the event loses the power to control us and we are free.
seems to me that’s living from the tree of life.
blessings
martin
October 27, 2007 at 1:20 am
Yes, forgiving is the main thing, 70 times 7, and that’s a given for the saint, in every situation, no getting out of it.
My point was that the fact we register an offense is bcos we are moral creatures made in the image of God (and not due to the 2 trees), and, if anything is objectionable to us (from being slandered to seeing children murdered) it is bcos we’ve made a personal judgment on the matter, automatically, as our God-given nature (distinguishing us from animals, who do not make moral judgments).
So, we judge (test, discern, know) everything, as the Bible tells us to do, without passing judgment – passing sentence : but rather, extend grace and forgiveness, but not at the expense of truth.
Martin, how would these scriptures harmonize with what Roy is saying, bcos this is clearly about righteous judgment?
1Co 5:9-13 I wrote to you in my epistle not to associate with fornicators. (10) Yet I certainly did not mean with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world! (11) But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a person. (12) For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? (13) But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
ian.
October 27, 2007 at 12:07 pm
ian. to give a fuller context and answer to your questions, i would refer you to his site at http://www.forgiveit.com all the articles on this subject and related are found there. may be of use to read his testimony there to give context.
blessings.
martin…
we may discern a situation. the Holy Spirit convicts. The Lord will judge.
October 27, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Martin wrote:
“we may discern a situation.”
Yes, that’s what God told us to do, to “judge righteous judgment”, therefore that’s a non-negotiable (sadly, Roy makes no reference to righteous judgment, its conspicuously absent) …and righteous judgment is pure, without malice, putting the honor and love of God before the honor and love of man.
Human relationships must be *secondary* to a Holy relationship with God, yet, they always reveal the nature of a person’s relationship to God.
That is why the gospel is Jesus Christ, the Person, and not defined solely as a message of forgiveness.
When we judge righteously in love then there’s nothing to forgive or repent of. Fleshly judgment (calling down fire from heaven on them, not caring about their soul) always needs repentance.
Martin, i checked out Roy’s site, and i must say there’s lot’s i would agree with, and also lot’s thats plainly not true. It has a strong humanistic slant. In nearly every example Roy cites of the curse of unforgiveness, he is referring to unregenerate un-born again people.
E.g.
Roy writes:
“The world is a mess., WHY? Muslim vs. Christian, Black vs. White, Republican vs. Democrat. On and on it goes all because of an unforgiveness/judgment.
How many millions of men and women killed over the centuries because of unforgiveness.
Race relations are forever a problem when we refuse to get to the real reason behind them. Unforgiveness.”
.
.
.
This is humanism (though i don’t say Roy is a humanist). Yes, you can teach the unregenerate to forgive, be kind, love one another, and they will reform themselves to a certain extent bcos even the unregenerate can see personal advantages from such : from the Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale school of thought. The message of the NWO and apostate church is exactly this. The Beatles preached it too, and i wouldn’t be surprised if the “answer” to the world’s problems that the antichrist/beast will offer is simply “forgive one another, and don’t judge.”
Man’s *only* problem is that he is in rebellion against the slain Lamb of God.
When a man is then truly born-again, forgiveness is his new nature, and whenever he’s tempted by his rotten flesh to not forgive, it rubs right against his new holy nature.
It’s a waste of time to teach the unregenerate to “be good”.
The mandate is: “Christ, and him crucified”.
God bless ya mate. And i bless brother Roy as well.
ian.
October 28, 2007 at 2:12 am
Ian.. thanks for your reply. I have known Roy several years… he is against humanism. i dont know if you read his testimony showing the journey he has had.
He is very much Jesus centered and focussed.
Apart from Christ we can do nothing. that hold true for believers as well as the unsaved–who do not know what is available to them in Christ.
Our lives as believers should so display the character of Christ in us that the unbelieving world will see that in us.
if an unbeliever friend told us they had done something bad [ whatever the event might be]… would we judge their “”sin”” or would we minister Christ to them? Man looks on the outside,, Father God looks on the heart.
blessings
martin
October 28, 2007 at 2:26 am
Yes, that’s true, but i can’t see how it’s relevant to what i’ve posted?
God bless ya heaps anyway brother.
ian.
November 6, 2007 at 2:51 am
Re: the “2 trees” teaching.
When i first heard this teaching a number of years ago, i didn’t believe it was from the Holy Spirit. Then, when someone i admired accepted it, i also accepted it, in my mind, yet i still couldn’t reconcile it peacefully in my spirit.
These days i would say that the “2 trees” teaching is conspicuously absent from the NT (for anyone whose read and understood the NT). Our Lord and Apostles didn’t teach it. Why then would someone teach something (even majoring on it) that our Lord and Apostles didn’t teach?
ian.
November 9, 2007 at 4:46 am
Re: “Invariably it is having men, spiritual leaders, in the place of the Lord Jesus, that is, having more confidence in men than in the Man, Christ Jesus. In this sense, a “spiritual” idol is another mediator, other than the only Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.”
A brother’s comment on a forum which is apt here:
“I’d only ask that people recognize that there is a generalized human need to have someone to admire, and to be careful in how we respond to that need.”
Worth understanding how we tick, eh.
We must never knowingly fulfill another’s need for someone to admire, by the way we represent ourselves to others.
ian.