All things were finished from the foundations of the world (Hebrews 4:3), as God’s character, nature, and words are eternal and unchanging. Therefore, there is no disagreement or contradiction between the examples that God has provided for us in the Old Testament and apostolic doctrine. What we observe today in the New Testament pattern may be found (through patient examination) in the Old Testament. Sometimes, these examples exist as types or shadows of the fullness we see today (Christ openly revealed), but they are evident. There are Old Testament examples of everything we see in the body of Christ at present:
· rejection of Spirit’s leadership in favor of the leadership of men
· a royal priesthood
· plural leadership
· God speaking a corporate message to a corporate body
· the role of women within the assembly
· as full partakers of the promise
· under authority
· assuming leadership functions when male leadership is absent
· false prophets
· a falling away
Rejecting the Leadership of the Holy Spirit
The rejection of the leadership of the Holy Spirit in favor of the leadership of men is not a new sin for it has historical precedence:
“And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh; And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands,” (1 Samuel 10:17-19).
There is no greater condemnation of the heart of man than the simple fact that it is the nature of the flesh to reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit in favor of the lordship of men: for this is a rejection of our intimacy with the Saviour. And yet, to this day we find saints who want God to establish earthly kings of greater spiritual influence and authority above them whom they can swear allegiance to (by their actions, if not their words), follow, and idolize.
Why then did God grant Israel’s request?
A Royal Priesthood
Just as the story of Abraham offering Isaac on the altar of God is an example of the nature of a full repentance and the coming substitutionary atonement of the Lamb of God, so too are prophets, judges, and kings a type of the coming “better covenant” and “royal priesthood” in which all saints would be filled with a new nature through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; Hebrews 8; 1 Peter 2:9).
Plural Leadership
God’s desire has never been for a single man to rule over the saints in His place, no matter how they are gifted to function within the congregation of God. Notice, God sends a group of elders to Pharaoh as spiritual ambassadors representing His people’s welfare. Although it is Moses who speaks, he speaks as part of a greater counsel:
“And God said moreover unto Moses, … gather the elders of Israel together …. and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God,” (Exodus 3:15-18).
Moses was numbered among the elders: for it has always been normative for a group of elders to speak with one voice–and as one people–when expressing God’s will concerning His holy nation. Regardless of gifting and calling, all saints are subject to spiritual accountability within the assembly, and this is great wisdom, as the Old Testament scriptures first declared: “Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety,” (Proverbs 11:14). The God-breathed reality of authentic assembly life is that wise counsel is a product of plural leadership.
A Corporate Message to a Corporate Body
“And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off. And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him. And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do,” (Exodus 24:1-3).
Even in Moses’ time, God’s message was to a people, not a person. The difference is that now, as opposed to Moses’ time, all saints are equally capable of hearing the voice of God: for this is the very substance and nature of what Christ’s atoning work accomplished (John 10:3, 27).
The Role of Women within the Assembly
A thorough reading of the Old Testament reveals that female leadership, while present, was not normative (for the accounts are rare): and as such, it conforms to every aspect of the New Testament teachings concerning the role of women within the assembly. First, the very presence of the prophetess Miriam and judge and prophetess Deborah (as two examples) are evidence of the fact that women are (every bit as much as men) New Testament members of our royal priesthood: and not behind men in intimacy and access to the Holy Spirit in any way. One characteristic of the apostate church is a profound lack of elders: and today, as in Deborah’s time) it is not unusual to find godly women demonstrating more faith within the assembly than the men. Notice in the following account, however, that God’s desire was not for Deborah to lead His army, but Barak: God does not press women into roles (elder) He reserved exclusively for men; rather, He uses Deborah’s faith to bolster the weak faith of Barak. The simple fact that Deborah does not usurp Barak’s God-ordained role, but merely supports him in his task, is proof of God’s will concerning these things: that those whom He ordains to rule over the assembly well (by serving God and others) are exclusively male. (Further documentation concerning the role of women in the assembly is found as an appendage at the end of this article.)
“And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan … and Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh,” (Judges 4:1-9).
It is a sign of the Lord’s displeasure with Israel that He judges them by the prophetess, Deborah: for apostates are often ruled over by ungodly women who desire to rule over men in the flesh (violating the clear command of 2 Timothy 2:11-12), rebelling against what God has ordained. Of course, the apostate church is full of men weak in the faith who refuse to heed the clear commands of the Lord–and these invariably turn to their own wisdom–affirming themselves by their own traditions (women elders). Where women lead and likewise assume authority in their homes that God has not granted them, children often become unruly, difficult and unrestrained (undisciplined). Consider the words of Isaiah who witnessed a similar time:
“As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths,” (Isaiah 3:12).
False Prophets and the Falling Away
Whenever believers turn from the word of God to embrace their own desires and traditions, inventing their own commandments, they are stripped of their strength–for the fruit of the word of God is mature disciples and just as faith matures—so too does the word of God grow up elders to stand like mighty oaks along the stream of living water (Matthew 4:28). Likewise, where this water no longer flows, spiritual malnourishment results: and men’s strength (God’s wisdom) is stripped away. It is the Lord who keeps our homes and fortifies our cities, and if we should forget this, He will remove the operation of His divine influence from among us (Psalm 127:1): “I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent,” (Luke 12:48; Revelation 2:5). This echoes the words of Jesus who said to those whom rejected Him face-to-face: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof,” (Matthew 21:43). It may be a reliable principle to consider that God will remove even their former (spiritual) knowledge from those who have chosen to pursue other lusts: “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them,” (2 Peter 2:21). (See also, Job 12.) Therefore, it is no wonder that we find no strong men among the apostate assembly of Isaiah 3:
For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, the mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, The captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator,” (Isaiah 3:1-3).
Far worse than a famine of bread and water, however, is a famine of “hearing the words of the Lord”: the antichrist will rise in a time of general apostasy in which elders of the faith will be few, and it will be common-place for them to be attacked with careless, malicious words as the wicked are given over to a strong delusion (Amos 8:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11). The fact that the son of perdition will “oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God … so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” is an indication that he will rise within the church (so-called), attributing to himself the Divine character and honor that is reserved for God alone (2 Thessalonians 2:-4). As forerunners of his demonic ministry, Nicolaitans will prepare the way for this deception, being tares among us: notice, they claim to love God, while actually opposing Him; and they overcome the people with false doctrines that establish traditions and commandments that God has not inspired (Revelation 2:6, 15). Filled with a hunger for worldly things, the self-appointed leaders of this time will divide and feast upon the church of God (denominationalism), leading men to themselves rather than to God (personality cults) (Matthew 23:2; 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, 3:3-5). The apostolic record suggests that the final state of the apostate church will be one that is absent of believers—for the ungodly will speak against the words of the prudent (the revelation of Christ)—and eventually remove those who profess Christ from their midst:
“I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church,” (3 John 1:9-10).
Appendage to The Role of Women within the Assembly
Mature women, of course, are commanded to “teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed,” (Titus 2:4-5). Men may teach women concerning the words of God, but they are obviously not fit to model the role of wife or mother as an example for younger women to follow: and so mature women are the most fit teachers of younger women concerning the words of God in these things. God’s words establish boundaries for both men and women within the assembly. (This is not to infer that women in New Testament assemblies cannot speak or teach out of the context of their relationship with God at all, but rather that they must acknowledge that God has not called them to function as the overseers of men: and any who attempt to function in this way may be commanded to silence, per 1 Timothy 2:11-12.) In Acts 18:26, Priscilla assists her husband, Aquilla, in expounding the word of God more perfectly to Apollos: yet, it should be noted that this was private conversation in the Lord and not public teaching.
“Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement,” (1 Peter 3:10).
Immediately after demonstrating his authority to command silence on the part of women who were not adorning themselves with a meek and quiet spirit, being in subjection to their husbands, Paul writes, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant,” (1 Cor. 14:37). Just as the commands of the Lord concerning a man’s conduct in his own home either qualifies or disqualifies him as an elder of the faith among the assembly (1 Timothy 3), so too does the influence of the Lord’s commands concerning the appropriate conduct of women within their homes and in their marriages extend to the assembly. Women are as much to be in subjection within the assembly as they are within the home. Therefore, where women adorn themselves with godliness, we are certain to find three examples of the divine influence working in their lives: a reverence for their husbands, a pure heart and chaste conversation in the Lord, and a ready willingness to defer to the operation of the Lord’s authority through elders of the faith.
As proof of this, consider the daughters of Philip who, although prophetesses, were not led of the Lord to prophesy to the apostle Paul; rather, the Lord brought a prophet to their home when He desired to speak to Paul through the divine unction:
“And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles” (Acts 21:8-11).
Mark Finger
January 23, 2008 at 11:31 am
A woman isn’t even fit to prophesy to a man? All I can say is i’m glad God is GOD, instead of man.
Thats it for me, i wouldn’t want to be out of line.
January 23, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Jamie wrote: “A woman isn’t even fit to prophesy to a man?”
Hi Jamie, where did he say that? (maybe he will be here a bit later to answer that)
My reading of it is that the Lord won’t speak thru a prophetess to rebuke or correct a man personally (usurping male authority). Yet, rebuking is a small part of the prophetic equation anyway, and, a prophetess – any sister, can refute false teachings by bringing the truth.
ian.
January 23, 2008 at 12:46 pm
I believe the word of God is clear that we all, as His people, are to correct and rebuke one another, male or female when necessary. This in no way means you are taking over a males authority. To think such a thing would stem from the natural (possible insecurity) and not the spirit.
I have no desire to lead or rule over ANY male, but just because someone is a male doesn’t mean he’s above correction from a female when he is clearly wrong; or that he is above a word form the Lord from her. I’m pretty sure this wouldn’t-shouldn’t shake his ‘headship’.
I would hate to be a part of any mans ‘group’ that thought otherwise; such as those are male social clubs with a legalist bent.
January 23, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Hey Jamie, we’re discussing the church setting, and in the assembly it is usurping of authority for a woman to rebuke a man.
I’ve got no problems at all with my wife pointing out to me when i’m wrong, and have never objected to it.
1Tim 2:11-15
(11) Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
(12) And I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
(13) For Adam first was formed, then Eve.
(14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, has come to be in transgression.
(15) Nevertheless she shall be saved through childbirth, if they remain in faith and love, and sanctification, with self-control.
In the church setting it’s the men who should correct the men. This is our context here.
The authority mentioned in the text above is to do with agreeing with Divine order.
ian.
January 23, 2008 at 2:11 pm
The Greek word used for “man” and for “husband” in the NT is the same word, aner. The Greek of the NT had no separate word for husband. Likewise for wife and woman. Therefore it must be determined by the setting which of these significations should be given to the scriptural passage in English. The woman has a subordinate place in the natural relationship of marriage. In Ephesians 5:21-25 Paul tells Wives to submit unto their own husbands as unto the Lord. Women are never told by the Apostle to submit to all the men in the church. If she is married and not submitted to her husband and being subordinate to him (her head) then she is not even supposed to pray or prophesy in the church. But if she is in proper submission to her husband, she may pray and prophecy in the assembly. One must speak (and not be silent) in order to pray or prophecy in the assembly. Well how can she do that if she is to remain silent and not usurp authority over the men of the assembly? The usurping authority over a man refers to a wife not usurping the authority over her husband.
Ephesians 5:21-22 tells of all members in the church to submit ourselves one to another in the fear of God. Is this written only to men in the church or women also? Does this mean that the men of the church are to submit themselves also to the women of the church in the fear of God, or was Paul only talking to one gender here? If he was only addressing the men of the assembly to submit themselves one to another in the fear of God, then the preceding commandments would also only apply to the men of the church. See what I mean? You must interpret Bible subjects inline with what other scriptures say on that subject.
The article posted also brought up Sarah calling Abraham Lord, yet when Sarah wanted Ismael cast out, God told Abraham to heed his wifes words. When the woman at the well went into town and told the men of the town about Jesus telling her all she had ever done, Jesus never rebuked her for preaching to men. There are many examples of women carrying truth to men in the NT. When the Bible says we are all brethren it isn’t just referring to men. There are also instances in the Bible of women being called prophetess, which is simply the feminine form of prophet. One must open their mouth in the assembly in order to prophecy.
Scripture must be interpreted in the light of what other scriptures say on the same subject. It must harmonize with all other scripture.
January 23, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I’m not angry with anyone here nor will I add anything else to this topic, but I am glad that it is God who orders my steps, appoints me with those He would have me assemble with, and puts His words in my mouth and gives me the unction and wisdom when and who to speak them to. And this, all under the headship and blessing of my wonderful husband.
I thank God that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and with Him the simplicity of the gospel is not corrupted or complicated.
I thank God for God!
January 23, 2008 at 3:30 pm
In reply to Catrina’s post, she’s made a number of points, so i’ve replied below in CAPS :
(SORRY FOR THE CAPS, I’M NOT SHOUTING, AND SHEELA IS LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER)
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Catrina wrote:
The Greek word used for “man” and for “husband” in the NT is the same word, aner. The Greek of the NT had no separate word for husband. Likewise for wife and woman. Therefore it must be determined by the setting which of these significations should be given to the scriptural passage in English. The woman has a subordinate place in the natural relationship of marriage. In Ephesians 5:21-25 Paul tells Wives to submit unto their own husbands as unto the Lord.
AND, HE TELLS ALL MEN AND WOMEN TO SUBMIT TO THE MALE ELDERS. HEB 13:17. (AT THAT TIME THERE WERE GODLY MEN AS ELDERS)
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Women are never told by the Apostle to submit to all the men in the church.
YES, OF COURSE, ONLY AN EVIL PERSON WOULD SUGGEST THAT (AND I FORGIVE YOU FOR EVEN SUGGESTING THAT I WOULD BELIEVE SUCH A RIDICULOUS THING ) BUT, ALL MEN AND WOMEN WERE TO SUBMIT TO THE ELDERS, WHO WERE MALE. – -SUBMISSION AS APPROPRIATE FOR GODLY ORDER IN THE ASSEMBLY LIFE. NOT CONTROL.
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If she is married and not submitted to her husband and being subordinate to him (her head) then she is not even supposed to pray or prophesy in the church. But if she is in proper submission to her husband, she may pray and prophecy in the assembly.
YES, OF COURSE, GOOD POINT. THEREFORE, A MARRIED WOMAN COULD NEVER HAVE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER AN ASSEMBLY OF WHICH HER HUSBAND WAS A MEMBER. WHICH SHOWS HOW CONTRADICTORY IT IS FOR WOMEN TO BE “OVER” – HAVING AUTHORITY OVER MEN IN THE ASSEMBLY AT ALL. BUT WE NEED TO DEFINE ALL THESE WORDS IN THE CONTEXT OF NT CHURCH LIFE.
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One must speak (and not be silent) in order to pray or prophecy in the assembly.
YES. THAT WOMEN CAN PRAY AND PROPHESY IN THE ASSEMBLY IS NOT QUESTIONED, AS PAUL TAUGHT IT.
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Well how can she do that if she is to remain silent and not usurp authority over the men of the assembly?
SHE IS TO BE SILENT IN REGARD TO USURPING MALE AUTHORITY. WOMEN CAN PROPHESY AND NOT USURP THE AUTHORITY OF THE MALE ELDERS PRESENT. PROPHESYING DOESN’T EQUAL USURPING AUTHORITY.
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The usurping authority over a man refers to a wife not usurping the authority over her husband.
IT’S MORE THAN THAT. LOOK AT THE WHOLE FUNCTION OF THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH.
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Ephesians 5:21-22 tells of all members in the church to submit ourselves one to another in the fear of God. Is this written only to men in the church or women also? Does this mean that the men of the church are to submit themselves also to the women of the church in the fear of God, or was Paul only talking to one gender here? If he was only addressing the men of the assembly to submit themselves one to another in the fear of God, then the preceding commandments would also only apply to the men of the church. See what I mean? You must interpret Bible subjects inline with what other scriptures say on that subject.
YES, OF COURSE THIS MEANS ALL SUBMIT TO ONE ANOTHER IN THE GENERAL SENSE, BUT, THIS SCRIPTURE IS NOT REFERRING TO CHURCH ORDER OR GOVERNMENT, OR EVEN OTHER EXPRESSIONS OF SUBMISSION, LIKE YOUNGER TO THE OLDER, OTHERWISE, THESE PASSAGES WOULD BE MEANINGLESS AND CONTRADICTORY.
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The article posted also brought up Sarah calling Abraham Lord, yet when Sarah wanted Ismael cast out, God told Abraham to heed his wifes words. When the woman at the well went into town and told the men of the town about Jesus telling her all she had ever done, Jesus never rebuked her for preaching to men. There are many examples of women carrying truth to men in the NT.
YES, THAT’S NOT IN CONTENTION HERE. YOU’LL NEVER FIND ANYTHING IN MARK’S OR MY TEACHING THAT WOULD CONTRADICT THESE POINTS.
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When the Bible says we are all brethren it isn’t just referring to men.
I SPOSE YOU DON’T KNOW US AT ALL TO BE TELLING US SUCH THINGS! OH WELL, NO OFFENSE TAKEN.
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There are also instances in the Bible of women being called prophetess, which is simply the feminine form of prophet.
YES.
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One must open their mouth in the assembly in order to prophecy.
YES.
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Scripture must be interpreted in the light of what other scriptures say on the same subject. It must harmonize with all other scripture.
INDEED.
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LET’S DEFINE OUR TERMS AND CONTEXTS FIRST.
ian.
January 23, 2008 at 5:41 pm
My main point being is that if all women must submit to all male authority then much of the NT epistles would not apply to women. For an example to clarify what I mean:
Jude wrote his epistle to those that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called. Then Jude goes on to tell these sancitified and preserved ones in Christ (which would include both men and women that are in Christ) to contend for the faith against those men that had crept into the church. So that would mean only the men of the church are sanctified and preserved in Christ if women cannot ever rebuke a man (because he is a man and she a woman), in contending for the faith. It would mean that Jude did not have women of the Body of Christ in mind, only the men for he would have known that all women can never rebuke a male when he wrote his epistle because that would be usurping authority over a man. These men had crept into the church. This may not be what you are intimating, but your points about women not usurping authority over a man in the church just because he is male and she is female could be misconstrewed to be understood this way.
The authority issue in 1 Corinthians 14 about the women keeping silent is one of a wife and husband. Because it tells us there that they are to ask their husbands at home. Well what about those women that had no husbands? Widows and single women? So this isn’t about all women keeping silent in the assembly. There was obviously something going on in that assembly where wives were not being in obedience to their husbands was concerned. Now if you check out the history of the Corinthian church you will find this to be true. In 1 Timothy Paul refers all the way back to Adam and Eve, a husband and wife. Women in that day had little or no education. So Paul advised the wives if they would learn anything, to ask their husbands at home instead of interrupting the church assembly. He isn’t dealing with ALL women and ALL men.
ALL men and ALL women must follow all the NT dictates of Church governance, but these issues of a woman keeping silent in the church is not referring to ALL women. The husband/wife relationship is a type of Christ and the Church. All men are not the covering for all women. My husband is my covering as is every husband for his own wife.
January 23, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Anywhere God is, 2 Cor 3:17 will be evident.
January 24, 2008 at 12:53 am
Hi Catrina,
I’ve already agreed with those points in my post before, that’s ok, maybe you didn’t read my reply.
But it’s sad that both of you have shown that you have no clue what we believe and have lowered yourselves in the manner in which you’re talking.
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Could you guys amen this?
That elders/overseers and deacons were all male and it was commanded that way, in the NT?
Therefore, the *type of authority* given to these men to do that specific work was exclusively given to men?
That the Lord Jesus had an INTENTION (reason) in selecting male apostles and not a coincidence, or cultural preference?
That Paul had an intention (reason, purpose) in all his teaching on elders/overseers and church govt? Meaning, that IF his intention was to teach that it makes no difference whether an elder is a man or a woman, i.e. that Paul was specifically trying to prove that point, then the Lord Jesus and Paul are both false teachers for misleading us, when they could have plainly stated such, and also ordained some women and showed them forth as an example of that teaching?
Any amens?
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last night Sheela and i were discussing this thread and she said that it’s only in the western countries that women have a problem with the scriptures concerning men and women.
ian.
January 24, 2008 at 1:24 am
Ian, I have no problem at all with church government, none. I see no record of woman elders or church overseers.
My problem is to be told that my function is to take care of the kids and husband in the assembly, and that I am so keep silent. This is Islam not a believers freedom.
To tell the truth, I feel a little betrayed by you because I shared some things with you that happened to me a while back concerning our old church. You realized right away what capacity the Lord used me in, and you also knew I had to meet with the pastor and elders alone.
See, I know who I am in Jesus, I KNOW what he told me to do and how He used me. Of course you guys might think this is only because there was no available males. That’s ok.
We now go to a fellowship that is free, the woman are free to talk and share openly because the pastor, elder, whatever you want to call him, understands a functioning body life. And God is there!
I got free from demonic oppression last week because one of the elderly ladies spoke out in tongues, and it was in order.
I know how God has used me and who I am in Him. I also respect male church leadership because God ordained it; so long as they respect a functioning body who doesn’t treat woman like second class citizens. If they did treat woman that way then we-I wouldn’t try to overthrow them, my family would leave. But, never ran into anything like that until possibly, now if i’m understanding this right.
Anyway, thats all. I feel this blog should be for you and the guys, like I already told you before. so, take care. I’ve enjoyed communicating with you over the months and am glad you don’t feel that you are too superior to dialogue with the likes of me. In fact, you never made me feel that way.
Bless you guys.
January 24, 2008 at 4:37 am
This makes my heart sick.
Jamie and Catrina, you are both according extreme positions to me that I have not established. I believe you are reacting to past experiences, possibly, certainly not me.
Why not have a ‘conversation’ with me to determine what it is that I believe the scriptures declare? I stand by what I have written, but I view the implications at a practical level differently than you believe I do in some of the situations you’ve raised. For example, Deborah quite evidently rebukes Barak: anyone notice that? It’s blatantly obvious from a casual perusal of the text (not meaning to be insolent here!). It was also to Barak’s shame, the Lord tells us. This is just one example of how you have not taken the time to find out what I am really saying and believe.
It’s really depressing to have you ascribe to me extreme positions that are not in balance with my actual convictions.
Sorry you feel that way. Truly.
I am not ‘hanging my head’ however in shame. If you want to have a mature, considerate conversation, I am quite open to doing so. (NOT being condenscending here.)
Let me know.
… and be at peace, Sisters …
January 24, 2008 at 4:42 am
By the way, I really respect and admire you guys (Jamie and Catrina) “in the Lord.”
Whether you like it or not.
Mark
January 24, 2008 at 11:36 am
Jamie wrote: “To tell the truth, I feel a little betrayed by you because I shared some things with you that happened to me a while back concerning our old church. You realized right away what capacity the Lord used me in, and you also knew I had to meet with the pastor and elders alone.”
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Just wanted to say that for a sister to go privately and express her objection to things is certainly not usurping authority.
We need to clearly delineate what it is we are actually discussing, the application and the context.
Most people today have never been in an NT assembly, and maybe never will, therefore, they may miss the context the apostolic commands are spoken into, having never experienced church functioning that way.
ian.
January 24, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Ian you said:
That elders/overseers and deacons were all male and it was commanded that way, in the NT?
From my research I have found that this is not true. Paul states in Romans 16:1 “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints and that you assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you…”
The Greek word diakonos, translated here as servant is translated elsewhere in the King James Version of the New Testament as “deacon”. Some of the other translatons of verse 1 read “…a deaconess…” Check it out in the Strong’s and you will also find this to be so.
The Holy Spirit was poured out on both men and women at Pentecost and the handmaidens of the Lord can prophecy, which is to speak under inspiration of the Spirit of God. After this post I will comment no more on this blog. I must agree with Jamie in that I am also feeling that this may be just a place for you guys to fellowship.
Just as an add on for your consideration though; did you ever consider that Jesus’ ministry was to be a travelling ministry and therefore may have something to do with Him not choosing any women to be among his 12 disciples since there would be allot of close living together as they travelled from place to place? I don’t think Jesus, by his choice of 12 men, was making a statement against women speaking in the assembly or having any inferior place in being used in all of the gifts of the Spirit (including the speaking gifts).
Bless you guys, and farewell. No hard feelings toward either of you at all. Pls know that.
January 24, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Some GREAT words in this Mark: to bad it got sidetracked by misunderstanding and over reacting of the flesh.
This deserves continuing discussion.
I like what you said here:
“Therefore, there is no disagreement or contradiction between the examples that God has provided for us in the Old Testament and apostolic doctrine. What we observe today in the New Testament pattern may be found (through patient examination) in the Old Testament.”
Most in americanized religionized christianity today dismiss what God says in the preincarnation of Messiah Scriptures (I try not to use NT or OT since God made it as ONE book flowing from Genesis to Revelation – the OT/NT seperation is a work of men)
When we examine if a doctrine, teaching, or characterization of God is correct in TRUTH we must see if it lines up with the WHOLE council of God.
One can not FULLY know and understand The Messiah independent of The Law, the feasts of Yahweh, and the prophets of Yahweh – for they all point to and type & shadow Messiah.
If one’s concept of Jesus and His Kingdom doesn’t line up with the types & shadows and the preincarnation revelations – they they have a WRONG concept.
We don’t have a “new” Jesus or a “new” kingdom – they were in existence and operating BEFORE Genesis 1:1.
January 24, 2008 at 2:47 pm
AGAIN, I’LL ANSWER IN CAPS SO IT’S CLEAR WHICH ARE MY COMMENTS.
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Ian you said:
That elders/overseers and deacons were all male and it was commanded that way, in the NT?
From my research I have found that this is not true. Paul states in Romans 16:1 “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints and that you assist her in whatsoever business she has need of you…”
The Greek word diakonos, translated here as servant is translated elsewhere in the King James Version of the New Testament as “deacon”. Some of the other translatons of verse 1 read “…a deaconess…” Check it out in the Strong’s and you will also find this to be so.
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SURE, PHEBE IS CALLED A SERVANT OF THE CHURCH , AND IT APPEARS SHE WAS SENT FROM CENCHREA TO ROME FOR SOME PURPOSE, WHICH IS NOT GIVEN.
BUT, THAT ONE EXAMPLE OF A FEMALE “SERVANT” DOESN’T MAKE THE REST OF THE APOSTOLIC COMMANDS VOID:
, 1Tim 3:8-13
(8) Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not being given to much wine, not greedy for money,
(9) holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
(10) But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being irreproachable.
(11) Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
(12) Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children well, and their own houses.
(13) For those who have served well as deacons obtain a standing for themselves and much boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Act 6:1-6
(1) Now in those days, as the disciples were increasing in number, there arose a complaint from the Greek speaking Jews against the Aramaic speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution.
(2) Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not pleasing to us that we should forsake the word of God to serve tables.
(3) Therefore, brothers, select seven men from among you, of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint for this need.
(4) But we will faithfully engage in prayer and in the ministry of the word.”
(5) And the word was pleasing before all the congregation, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch,
(6) whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
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Catrina wrote:
The Holy Spirit was poured out on both men and women at Pentecost and the handmaidens of the Lord can prophecy, which is to speak under inspiration of the Spirit of God.
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.TO KEEP REPEATING THIS IS NOT THE STUFF OF A GENUINE DISCUSSION, BCOS IN THIS DISCUSSION WE’VE ALREADY AGREED THIS, A COUPLE OF TIMES, THEREFORE, TO KEEP ASSERTING THE SAME THING, WHICH WAS ALREADY AGREED ON. MEANS THAT, EITHER, YOU HAVEN’T READ THE REPLIES OF THE PERSON YOU’RE HAVING A DISCUSSION WITH, OR, YOU KNOW I HAVE AGREED ON THIS, BUT ARE STILL SAYING IT TO TRY AND PROVE SOME POINT ONLY KNOWN TO YOU, I.E. WHAT REPEATING THIS STATEMENT PROVES. (I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU PROVE THRU THIS) IN A FACE TO FACE DISCUSSION IT WOULD BE RATHER UNSETTLING IF IT HAPPENED.
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Catrina wrote:
After this post I will comment no more on this blog. I must agree with Jamie in that I am also feeling that this may be just a place for you guys to fellowship.
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.YOU’RE WELCOME TO STAY. IT’S STRANGE THAT BOTH MARK AND I HAVE HAD DIALOGUES WITH YOU AND JAMIE BEFORE AND THERE NEVER WAS A PROBLEM TILL NOW, SUDDENLY WE’VE BECOME LEGALISTS OR WHATEVER JAMIE ACCUSED US OF.
WOULD YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? THAT YOUR MINISTRIES HAVE BEEN RESPECTED AND VALUED BY US THE WHOLE TIME? WORTH CONSIDERING? OR HAVE YOU FOUND SOME LOOPHOLE BY WHICH YOU CAN JUST DISPOSE OF US NOW?
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Catrina wrote:
Just as an add on for your consideration though; did you ever consider that Jesus’ ministry was to be a travelling ministry and therefore may have something to do with Him not choosing any women to be among his 12 disciples since there would be allot of close living together as they travelled from place to place?
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THERE *WERE* WOMEN TRAVELING WITH JESUS:
Luke 8:1-3
(1) Now it came to pass afterward, that He was traveling through every city and village, preaching and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God, and the twelve were with Him,
(2) **and certain women** who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities; Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
(3) and Joanna the wife of Chuza, a supervisor of Herod, and Susanna, and many others who were ministering to them from their belongings.
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Catrina wrote:
I don’t think Jesus, by his choice of 12 men, was making a statement against women speaking in the assembly or having any inferior place in being used in all of the gifts of the Spirit (including the speaking gifts).
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AGAIN, YOU ARE FALSELY ACCUSING ME (REPEATEDLY) OF SAYING WOMEN CAN’T SPEAK IN ASSEMBLIES, AND NOW USING THE SLANDEROUS WORDS “INFERIOR PLACE” – SUGGESTING MARK AND I ARE TEACHING WOMEN HAVE AN “INFERIOR PLACE”? C’MON!
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Catrina wrote:
Bless you guys, and farewell. No hard feelings toward either of you at all. Pls know that.
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THERE’S CERTAINLY NO HARD FEELINGS FROM ME CATRINA.
I URGE YOU TO CONSIDER EVERY POINT IN THE THREAD ABOVE , THE FEW POINTS WHERE I’VE SHOWED YOU THAT YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE NOT BIBLICAL.
ian.
January 24, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Hi Ian, I still think as much of you guys as I ever did. I admit I took things a little personally given the history of how God has used me.
There is very little understanding in that area these days, and this is why I don’t discuss it with but very few, or trust people too easily with the things I reveal to them about myself.
I do not wish to debate this, it takes away from the things that are important and confuses the simplicity I have in Christ. I am not casting anybody aside because of this, I truly feel that i’m not suppose to be here on the blog regardless of this topic. You know I had reservations about it anyway. If I stay when God says go, then you can look for more trouble.
Please know I am not the least bit upset with you or Mark, I have a lot of respect for you guys and have cast no one aside because of this. We are all going to vary on understanding in some areas because of how we’ve been personally used of God, plus we will misunderstand each other at times because we can never be sure of the hearts intentions through written communication.
I am choosing to think the best.
Your ‘FRIEND’,
Jamie
January 24, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Walt: I just told Bob (Dusty) last night that I felt like the Lord was leading me to call you. I had felt that He wanted me to leave you to Him for a while in the recent past. Will call you and look forward to speaking with you as always, brother.
MISSED YOU
Peace
P.S. CATRINA and JAMIE: no hard feelings on my part either. Thank you for remembering our friendship and conversations in the Lord in the past. I know that neither of you are malicious. Never thought that for a second. How we treat each other is important! I do wish we could have had this conversation, as I believe we are all quite capable of handling it maturely (without question), but I respect the fact that you do not want to, none-the-less.
Peace!
January 24, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I do not like contention between me and my brethren so I will post this and then cease and desist from posting any more. Like Jamie, I always had my reservations about being on here and posting. I should have followed my gut feelings to begin with but overroad them. That was not wise on my part as you can see what it has lead to.
If I have misunderstood your and Mark’s views on this, I apologize. I do not like taking another persons post apart line upon line. Maybe my points would have been more easily understood if I had taken all your points one by one the way you did my replies, but it just isn’t the way I do things. Nor can I.
However, I apologize if I have miss-understood and falsely accused where you and Mark are coming from and now I take my leave once and for all from this blog because it has never felt right in my spirit to be here in the first place. I really do need to follow my first instincts about these things.
January 25, 2008 at 1:56 am
Ok Catrina.
It’s been night here that’s why i haven’t replied earlier.
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Here’s a thought on the subject of authority in a NT assembly (related to whether men or women can exercise it).
If my daughter questioned my actions if i was wrong or if i sinned against God, saying “daddy, why are you doing that?” , it doesn’t reason that she is being disrespectful, unsubmissive, dishonorable, or taking authority over me.
However, if she did not recognize my God given authority over her, when questioning me, she would be dishonoring God.
This example shows that there’s a difference between the common authority all believers have in Christ to speak the truth into situations, AND, having authority OVER others, to silence them, or remove them from the assembly, as is sometimes required. For a woman to do this OVER men is a disgrace for her, and shame also on the men for being so feminine that they allow it.
The prevailing confusion over these issues today is a sign of how apostate christianity has become.
ian.
January 25, 2008 at 2:18 am
P.S. Thanks Jamie and Catrina for your kinds words, though, if we post something we need to be accountable for it.
God bless, and you have my prayers.
Thanks Walt for the point you made. Been wanting to reply to it, maybe later.
ian.
January 25, 2008 at 7:45 am
Absolutely true. Women are only to take on a minor role in the ministry and a women’s role is mainly to teach other Christian women – how to dress, how to behave, what’s wrong and what’s right, and how to live decent Christian lives, that are pleasing in the eyes of God.
January 25, 2008 at 12:55 pm
What is “the ministry”? I wouldn’t call the womens’ calling in the Church as a “minor role” (though i think i know what you mean Gillian) because the issue is one of authority for certain purposes , e.g. in a family, we wouldnt call the wife’s role-work a minor one, it’s an equal one, yet the husband’s headship should be recognized and rejoiced in as being God’s order, a gift from Him.
Prayer is the greatest ministry, and anyone can be caught up in that great eternal work if they desire. Telling people about Jesus is also “up there” with prayer as the great ministry, and the door is wide open into that ministry for whoever desires it.
When i hear people say they are “in ministry” or “ministering” i feel sad that they are self-conscious of doing the Lord’s work, it was never meant to be like that, it’s meant to be our new nature.
January 26, 2008 at 1:27 pm
You got it right. I didn’t mean minor as in insignifcant. I meant it in not usurping the man’s role,
teaching him or lording it over him.
If you look at some of the current day “Jezebels” youll know exactly what I mean.
Bless you all.