There is only one God our Father and one LORD Jesus Christ and one Spirit of God, of Truth. His power, majesty, omnipotence, vastness of His love, all that He is, that He is infinite, this far surpasses the finite human mind , the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge.
Although He is infinite, and there is mystery for us fully comprehending Him: His triunity, His sovereignty and power, YET, He is never complicated or mysterious in His dealings with man, He deals truthfully and simply : to the unbeliever, believe, to the unrepentant, repent, to the disobedient, obey…
Like a Christian Billboard message from ‘God’ which said, Which part of ‘thou shalt not’ didn’t you understand?
Man doesn’t like such direct and simple dealings from God bcos there’s no glory for himself. The simple Truth declared in the Scriptures is becoming less popular these days.
Ian Vincent 
February 25, 2009 at 8:42 am
This is related, posted it on CrossRevival forum:
Any Christian, after having been saved, regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit, with the fruit and the gifts, has the free will choice whether to abide in Christ or not, whether to obey the gospel and His righteousness, or go back to the filth from which we were once saved from, and to be damned, otherwise, we are just robots and there’s no love or worship.
Yes, from God’s point of view, from His predestination, He knows who are His and whom He has predestined, yet that’s a mystery for us.
Here’s a relevant passage:
2Pe 2:20 For if having escaped from the corruptions of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet by these, having become entangled they are defeated, the latter end has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it was better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the saying of the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Here, both predestination and freewill are acknowledged: Peter says that IF they get saved but go back, then it shows they are a ‘dog’. But he says if AFTER having been delivered from sin they fall away. So they did bear fruit, they had the real Holy Spirit…
If we were to meet a Christian who once had a changed life, the fruit of conversion, and assurance of salvation, who is going back to the filth and is being overtaken and ensnared in it again, do we tell Him what the Bible says, that unless he repents he will perish? That the way he’s heading ends up in hell? Or do we tell him ‘once saved always saved’?
If we say the latter, then we’re just con artists who have no fear of God ourselves.
P.S. I would never ‘trade off’ predestination against freewill, or vice versa : they are parallel truths, a mystery, both equally true, and equally important, hence no ‘trade off’.
February 25, 2009 at 11:21 am
“YET, He is never complicated or mysterious in His dealings with man”
REALLY? Then what about the mystery that was hid in God before the foundation of the world???
February 25, 2009 at 11:51 am
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations, but now was revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory;
Col 1:28 whom we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus;
Col 1:29 for which I also labor, striving according to His working which is working in me with power.
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My context of my brief article is “God’s dealings with man”.
The things that God has hidden from man can’t be called His ‘dealings with man’ : his ‘dealings’ are the things He reveals and speaks to man, not the things He hides from man.
The revelation of Christ, the Son of God, was not in “God’s dealings with man” during the OT times, He was a mystery, hidden even from the prophets, who only had glimpses of what was to come.
Now, in the New Covenant dispensation, there’s nothing mysterious about the good news of Jesus Christ, which is preached to all nations. Nothing esoteric about God’s dealings with sinners via the gospel message. Believe/repent and you will be saved.
February 25, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, just as I said to you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
This is in the foreknowledge of God.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for by doing these things you shall by no means stumble at any time.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way the entrance will be supplied to you richly into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So, what if a Christian, who believes they are called and elected, begins to head back to the filth and the mire and get entangled again?
Peter would say, ‘make your calling and election sure‘ . What is the sure ety here they need to make sure? Repentance.
Such a person, going back to the filth, doesn’t make their calling and election sure by ‘pleading the Blood’, or ‘preaching the Cross’ , or ‘preaching grace’ etc. as good as those things are, but by repenting.
But they go to the Baptist Church for counseling for their sin addiction: the counselor asks them ‘Are you saved?‘ Oh yes, Jesus saved me 3O years ago! He totally changed my life, really. ‘Then you’re safe brother! Don’t fear, once saved always saved!’. The guy leaves the counseling session still addicted to pornography or whatever and has to think this over:
” Hey, i don’t really need to repent, if i’m eternally secure. Even if i don’t repent, Jesus would not damn me, would He? No one can pluck me from Jesus’ hand…” The guy probably ends up in hell, according to God’s Word.
February 25, 2009 at 2:04 pm
All saved believers are warned over and over in the Word about the consequences of falling away, and repeatedly exhorted to remain faithful to Jesus and to endure until the end.
Could you say that saved people are never warned or cautioned about the possibility of falling away, in Scripture? That all the warnings are only to unbelievers?
And, if you agree that believers are warned, would you then add, ‘BUT there’s no possibility they ever could fall away’. ?
It’s the saved people who are warned about falling away, as in Hebrews 6.
and..
1Co 9:27 But I treat my body roughly, and I bring it into subjection, lest, having preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Paul plainly believes it is possible for saved Christians like himself to fall away if they let their flesh take over their life again and become enslaved again to the flesh as one’s master.
disqualified, or cast off
G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok’-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): – castaway, rejected, reprobate.
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2Co 13:5 Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that you will know that we are not reprobates.
reprobates here is the same word, adokimos.
A note on: 1Co 9:27 But I treat my body roughly, and I bring it into subjection…
There is no thought here of self flagellation or self imposed rigors, rather, the bare fact that it’s painful at times to not give the flesh what it demands.
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The LORD commands us to repent, if we need to repent. The person whom God commands to repent, like the backslidden Christian i referred to before, shouldn’t think, ‘ Now, if i repent then it means that i am tryng to please God by my works, trying to earn my salvation, therefore i won’t repent...’.
But if he truly does repent, after the fact he may say, ‘ The LORD helped me to repent, it was grace alone, His power alone..‘ and that would be an indicator that he truly did have faith in Jesus Christ.
He may also admit, ‘If i had not repented i would have ended up disqualified, lost’.
February 26, 2009 at 9:32 am
The Bible warns of the consequences of falling away. And the hardening of the heart, which is deception, the deceitfulness of sin, is a process that begins when any believer approves of any sin in their life.
If i understand what you’re saying rightly // someone on a forum // , it’s that your approach to deeply backslidden Christians is that they were probably never born again to begin with?
From experience, i would agree in perhaps the majority of cases.
But with the born again backslider, who is sliding ever deeper into sin, what do we tell him the Scripture says?
“Don’t worry mate, yes, the sin is bad and you should repent, but even if you don’t, at least you’re eternally secure! As you fill your mind with filth and defile the temple of the Holy Spirit, at least know the Cross took care of all your future sins as well!” ??
or do we say, “Mate, you were never born again to begin with. If you were really born again you would bear good fruit”. ??
The wisdom of God thru the Scriptures to the professing Church is to warn the sinner of the consequences, whether it’s been proved he’s been born again or not.
Which brings me to the related subject, and why i started this thread: How did the early Church deal with sin, backsliders, and what was their understanding of it?
I was surprised to learn that thru the NT there is little evidence of the Church inquiring as to whether people claimed to have been born again or not, rather, they simply judged the fruit, the actions of people ; beginning with water baptism and onwards.
Typified in this statement:
2Cor 13:5 Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates?
and..
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those that are His,” and, “Let everyone naming the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”
What i’m saying is that when sin was found among the saints it was dealt with, disciplined. There was no trying to ascertain whether the guy was truly born again to begin with. Why? Bcos if they are enslaved by sin it’s irrelevant, they will be lost if they don’t repent, whether they were born again, or never born again to begin with.
That’s what Paul, in essence, is saying to Corinth, in 2 Cor. 13 , ‘You examine yourself! You show me if you’re reprobate or not by how you live. I’m not telling you you’re eternally secure just bcos you have a profession of faith’.
That’s how he spoke to ‘carnal’ Christians.
Another point on the wisdom of God in warning the Church so much in Scripture: He was wise enough to know that the heart is wicked and deceitful, and He gave the warnings to counter people having a false hope of salvation; that is, being unrepentant yet thinking they’re saved. The warnings remove any excuse for a false hope, for the believer.
P.S. And how would it appear before God if we played any part in, or bore any responsibility for, someone having a false hope? False hope is a terrible fact in christendom; how many professing ‘christians’ slide into hell every day under the watch of their clergy, who never warned them?
February 27, 2009 at 12:47 am
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February 28, 2009 at 3:27 am
The Bible warns of the consequences of falling away. A simple fact.
Yes, God in His foreknowledge knows who is who and exactly what will happen, “The LORD knows who are His”, that’s on one hand, and on the other, He warns the professing Church, all who take the name of Jesus, and He tells us to do the same, not to try and figure out what is only known to God in the fore knowledge of God.
E.g. If you went off into adultery it’s not my place to say to you, “You can never be lost, you’re eternally secure, yes, it’s bad and repent, but at least be comforted to know that you can never lose your salvation…”
If i said that i would be a false teacher, and your blood God would require at my hand.
See smack dab in the middle of Paul’s corrective letter to the Corinthians, he tells them point blank that no adulterer etc. shall inherit the Kingdom, no matter what they profess or what they’ve been in the past.
Do you believe that in every case where a Christian falls into adultery etc. that they were never born again to begin with? That wouldn’t be realistic. Such a person needs to be told what Scriptures says, if they remain in adultery they shall not be saved. Indeed , Jesus says to them, unless you repent of adultery you will perish. There’s no contradiction, no adulterer, fornicator, liar etc. has eternal life.
So, my only point in this thread is exactly what the title says. Not to try and figure out who is predestined or not, things which are only known to God, Scripture doesn’t exhort us to try and figure that out. Yes, there are tares and there is wheat. Some are exposed now, some are exposed only later at the judgment.
Therefore, if we were to preach “once saved always saved” to the backslidden Christian in adultery, fornication, corruption etc. , then God would require their blood at our hand.